July 1985

BY RICK BERG

[This interview was conducted because several members of Dignity/Cleveland argued that Bob Navis and the Committee Supporting Justice for Gay People were presenting a one-sided view of the events which led up to the. prayer vigil. In the interest of presenting a wellbalanced interpretation of these events, Pattie Baskin and Capie O'Donnell, spokespersons for Dignity/Cleve land, consented to this interview with the GPC.]

You disagree with Bob Navis' statement that he was not offered a contract to teach at Erieview High School for the 1985-86 school year. What is this based on?

P: I was under the impression at that social justice meeting that he had in fact been offered a contract, not just that day, but for the previous two months, because he said there, "Mary Rita

[Crookston, Principal of

Erieview High School] has been saying, 'Sign the contract. Sign it. It's here.'" Supposedly he had signed pre-agreement contract couple of months prior to that.

a

He said this at a meeting you attended?

P: Dignity/Cleveland's committee on social justice. He's the co-chair with me. It was at Bob's house on the evening of May 29.

On what other points do you disagree with Navis?

P: An official spokesperson of the Diocese of Cleveland stated on TV that they had known that he was gay and that was not a přoblem.

C: Right now, the whole thing Bob's going on is Erieview and Erieview has nothing to do with the St. Francis issue. It's a separate issue.

you saying that Navis' contract was renewed and that he could have signed it?

C: Yes.

P: The way I understand it is that he was waiting to hear from Christine [Vladimiroff, secretary of education for the Diocese of Cleveland] about hospitalization. He mentioned at the social justice meeting that he felt there should ɓe another clause added to the contract which stated that he would not be fired because he was gay.

C: One thing that's not being said is that Bob is continuing to say that he was a teacher at Erieview. He was not certified and he was talking about wanting the health benefits and not signing the contract until he got those benefits, he was part-time and as anybody knows, part-timers don't get shit when it comes to health benefits anywhere.

But he had those benefits when he held both jobs?

P: Yes, because he had two

Gay Peoples Chronicle

part-time jobs, but when he left St. Francis he became a part-time employee.

the Do you agree that he lost St. Francis job for

being gay?

C: I don't really know. And I don't think that should be addressed in this particular issue, because he is trying to merge Erieview and St. Francis and from everything I've learned in talking to people, when the whole Erieview situation came up, they were treating Erieview as a separate entity and trying to deal with him and trying to come up with some sort of agreeable way that both could be happy. And it was treated as a separate thing.

Capie O'Donnell Dignity President

(GPC File Pho

COR-

Why do you consider these two refusals to renew tracts, the first at St. Francis, the second at Erieview, as separate and unrelated?

C: Because of conversations I've had with people in the Diocese and what I know they have said about the situation at Erieview and that they were treating it separately

and yes, they did want to offer him a contract at Erieview and tried to

offer him a contract at Erieview. St. Francis was a different situation. P: My personal belief is that he was discriminated at St. Francis. You do have to treat them as separate incidents because he went through the proper channels in handling St. Francis with the Diocese and trying to negotiate to find out what went wrong, build dialogue

to help educate. Erieview--they had no problem with that.

Why does Dignity see the two incidents as separate?

C: Because I don't think the Erieview thing was an issue of gay discrimination.

Why do you think Navis isn't contracted to work at Irieview now?

INTERVIEW WITH DIGNITY

C: This is only personal conjecture. I think he is not working at Erieview partially because the issue was made so public with the TV cameras and interviewing students and coming out students.

to

Do you think it was discriaination because he was flaunting his sexual orientation?

C: No. You have certain standards of things that are

Capie O'Donnell: "I don't think [Bob's termination]

had anything to do with the fact that he was gay."

considered appropriate. You have certain things that you do and yoù do not do at work. There are certain things I cannot do at work having nothing to do with my sexuality. I think every employer has a right to expect certain standards of behavior. And if you choose not to meet those standards of behavior--maybe sometimes those standards are wrong but you don't go attacking that institution or that employer from the outside in a public fashion. I think change has to be made. I think change has to be made

Bob

the Catholic Church, and at my employer on the issue of gay rights. But there are ways of doing that without holding your employer for public flogging. basically wanted to bring his personal life out in public for students and facyour ulty to see. I think y personal life has no business in a classroom or in your place of employment. don't

think you should have to hide in the closet, but don't bring your personal life to work.

Do you believe that people are generally assumed to be heterosexual unless they tell people differently?

P: I think that's changing. Society is becoming moře ā-

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ware of differences in people, whether you're straight or gay. They knew he was gay; there was no problem with that. The teaching of the Church is it is not a sin to be gay. There's no problem with you being gay, The problem comes into It when you do the act. I'm hearing from the Diocese is that they didn't even have a problem that he had a lover. It's when he went public with the lover.

What

Do you agree that the Diocese of Cleveland terminated this employment?

P: They terminated it.

C: Bob did not quit.

P:

I think Bob precipitated it by coming out so overtly. In many ways, the Diocese has to revert back to their teaching. Their hands are tied. We agree the Church needs to change, but one person can't change it in a 24-hour period.

Do you think Bob's termination had anything to do with his being gãy?

C: I don't think it had anything to do with the fact that he was gay. For example, if you were up for renewal at your place of employment, would you go in and say, "In my contract I want something saying that I will not be fired for being gay"? Is that even an issue at that point?

There are standard union contracts which prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, SO there are precedents for that sort of thing.

C:

Yes, on the broad spectWe're all fighting for a non-discrimination clause.

rum.

P: But why should one person get it in his contract and not another? He's asking for special treatment. If it is offered to him, then to it has to be offered every single person.

Should it be offered to offered every single person?

P: I think it should be.

Do you think Navis was wrong in asking for that protection?

C: I think on the broad spectrum we all need that I think in protection. Bob's particular case, it issue of even the being gay. It had nothing to do with that.

was not

Should anyone ever come out at work?

C: That should be a personal choice. I don't think you should be harmed if you come out at work but I also think to a certain extent, if your coming out at work infringes other people, then you shouldn't do that. I'm not P. 11, col. 3

on